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Message-ID: <20141225044908.GB13509@openwall.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 07:49:08 +0300
From: "(GalaxyMaster)" <galaxy@...nwall.com>
To: owl-users@...ts.openwall.com
Subject: Re: owl-startup
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 03:22:32AM +0300, croco@...nwall.com wrote:
> hour, then, the problem is not with me but with the distro), I can't launch
> nor stop daemons, and I CAN'T VIEW LOGS!!! It was the first time in 20+
> years of my personal Unix experience when 'less /var/log/messages' gave me
Well, this just means that you didn't install a syslog daemon, why blame
some developer for that?
> BTW, I even hate these people who wrote Grub and I'm glad Openwall
> continues to use Lilo. Why? There's only two things I really need from a
> boot manager: I want to be able to replace the kernel and I want to be able
> to boot with init=/bin/sh in case of troubles. I perfectly know how to do
> these with Lilo. I never feel good doing exactly the same things with
I project a lot of hatred, yet your arguments are weak. For example,
all other modern bootloaders are addressing one LILO deficiency: every
time you update lilo configuration you are playing a Russian roulette
game since it updates the master boot record. With all other boot
loaders (e.g. grub, syslinux, etc.) you install the bootloader once and
you have the options to recover if you messed up with the update of your
configuration. Anyway, this is irrelevant to the discussion.
> See http://debianfork.org/ People are so unhappy with systemd that they
> are going to fork Debian. I understand them. Perfectly.
If it was such a good idea surely they would have raised more than just
$5K for the project. So far it seems as a poor attempt to get
publicity.
> This 'trend' is a thing to resist up to death. There must be SOMEONE who
> resists. Openwall GNU/*/Linux is a server distro which nearly by
> definition has none of these 'problems' that damn systemd tries to address.
You are using quite strong words, but just try to look from the other
side:
* we claim to be RH compatible, but our compatibility is lacking and
behind like 8 years or so;
* there is no active development going on and the option of installing
packages from other RPM distros is getting more and more unrealistic
since everybody else has moved on (much newer glibc, systemd
dependencies, etc.);
* it would be great to use Owl as a server VM distro on cloud providers,
but we don't have Xen support and DHCP client out of the box, so most
popular Clouds like AWS and RackSpace are not available to us out of
the box;
All in all, the original idea is indeed great, but if we do not invest
into moving the project forward I think we will lose whatever userbase
we currently have. Don't get me wrong, I am all for keeping Owl small
and if possible not to tie it up with things like systemd, but we are
not alone out there and to make our work more rewarding we should
consider what other distros are doing.
> What opinions? Simply go shut in the head these bastards who invented
> systemd. And, perhaps, those who force distros to switch to it, as well.
That's a lot of people... and distros. IIRC, the following distros has
already switched to systemd: RH (RHEL, FC, CentOS), SuSE, Arch, ALT.
The list is much longer, but the first two are what enterprises are
mostly using (at least here in Australia and in the United States),
others are extremely popular for home enthusiasts.
--
(GM)
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