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Message-ID: <20141222002231.GB3598@openwall.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 03:22:32 +0300
From: croco@...nwall.com
To: owl-users@...ts.openwall.com
Subject: Re: owl-startup
Colleagues,
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 07:39:10AM +0300, (GalaxyMaster) wrote:
> Gremlin, All,
[...]
> On a side note, I would never imagine that I'd raise it here and be a
> proponent of it, but here it comes: should we start working toward
> integrating systemd into Owl?
I strongly believe that there should never ever be even an idea of using
this monster. Distros that switched to it are, to my mind, absolutely
useless now, at least for me, as I DEFINITELY will refuse to invest my time
in learning how to deal with systemd; I tried to run Gentoo on my Raspberry
Pi, and I found that I'm no longer able to configure the network (okay, if,
with all my experience, I fail to configure the networking properly in a
hour, then, the problem is not with me but with the distro), I can't launch
nor stop daemons, and I CAN'T VIEW LOGS!!! It was the first time in 20+
years of my personal Unix experience when 'less /var/log/messages' gave me
'No such file or directory'. Hell, I hate Windows, and I feel terribly
helpless trying to deal with Windows (when I have to), but dealing with
systemd-based distros is even worse.
Well, not only I believe systemd shoudn't be used (by anyone, for any
purpose), I really believe that the people who wrote it should be at least
decapitated. This is just Another Terrible Mistake, we know a lot of them:
C99, STL, USB, C++11, ad infinitum. If I hear the word 'terrorism', I
recall all these things, they do more harm to mankind than Al Quaeda does.
> Over the last 6 months I was kind of "forced" to work extensively with
> distros that switched to systemd. To do my job properly I had to learn
> the design of that framework and it really looks logical and once you
> jump through the hoops of the learning curve you cannot deny that
> Poettering and Co did a huge amount of work to standardise the startup &
> init process. The documentation is also _very_ good.
This is just irrelevant here. Systemd claims to solve problems that
actually do NOT exist. Look, in my practice I never face any of these
'problems', so I don't need any solution to them. From the other hand,
being forced to use systemd, I'll *HAVE TO* learn it. The docs might me
good, or even excellent, but the thing as such is overcomplicated, so it
would take really significant amount of my time to get being able to deal
with it. WHY the hell should I waste my time? I'm damn old and I clearly
see that the rest of my life is insufficient to do all things I want to
complete. And if we add up all the time that people around the globe HAVE
TO waste learning systemd, we'll see the authors of systemd are kinda
serial murderers as this amount of wasted time is equal to smth. like 1000
or even more human lifetimes.
BTW, I even hate these people who wrote Grub and I'm glad Openwall
continues to use Lilo. Why? There's only two things I really need from a
boot manager: I want to be able to replace the kernel and I want to be able
to boot with init=/bin/sh in case of troubles. I perfectly know how to do
these with Lilo. I never feel good doing exactly the same things with
Grub, every time I have to waste time figuring out how to achieve what I
need. And THERE'S ABSLOLUTELY NOTHING in reward! I never need anything
Grub is able to perform: you see, Grub is there for smth. like 15 years,
all these years I use Linux (and nothing else), and I never made any profit
of Grub, only losses. But Grub is only a boot manager. Systemd replaces
all what I'm used to think of as 'Unix'. Troubles? Obviously. Profit?
None at all.
> Sooner or later we will face the fact that we should decide whether we
> go with the trend or make our own path. However, knowing our limited
> resources I doubt that we are going very successful with the latter.
See http://debianfork.org/ People are so unhappy with systemd that they
are going to fork Debian. I understand them. Perfectly.
This 'trend' is a thing to resist up to death. There must be SOMEONE who
resists. Openwall GNU/*/Linux is a server distro which nearly by
definition has none of these 'problems' that damn systemd tries to address.
> Opinions?
What opinions? Simply go shut in the head these bastards who invented
systemd. And, perhaps, those who force distros to switch to it, as well.
Anyway, having a server distro that does NOT require the admin to know how
to deal with systemd is good in itself.
--
Croco
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