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Message-ID: <CAA2zVHpp-YycvXDcHR-03Jkg6wVBaTnf=K0r77RNtW35H+Jasw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:42:23 -0700
From: James Y Knight <jyknight@...gle.com>
To: musl@...ts.openwall.com
Subject: Re: Removing glibc from the musl .2 ABI
On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 2:29 PM Rich Felker <dalias@...c.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 09:33:05AM -0700, James Y Knight wrote:
> > One thing I've not seen mentioned yet: if this is done, then anyone
> > (whether intentionally or inadvertently) who links any glibc-compiled .o
> or
> > ..a files into a musl binary/shared-lib will be broken.
>
> If it referenced glibc symbols that have been moved out of musl, it
> would just fail to link (at ld time or ldso time, depending on program
> binary/shared lib). The only way it would be silently broken is with
> symbols where glibc and musl share the same symbol name but with
> different ABI (like regexec on 64-bit, which is already possible now,
> or the non-64bit-off_t functions on 32-bit archs, or lots of stuff on
> mips and powerpc where there's minimal or no ABI-compat).
>
> For the time64 stuff, my thought is to try to use redirected-symbol
> names that don't match whatever names glibc will be using, so that
> there's no risk of the link accidentally succeeding. I think it makes
> sense in general to try to have ABI match when we add symbols that
> will also exist in glibc, on the archs that have ABI-compat.
>
> > Up until now, with musl's mostly-glibc-compatible ABI, you could link the
> > two object files together, and generally expect it to work. When
> > compatibility is instead done with magic in the dynamic loader, that
> > obviously can only ever work with a shared-object boundary.
> >
> > I don't know if anyone actually uses musl in a context where this is
> likely
> > to be a problem, but it at least seems worth discussing (and loudly
> > documenting as a warning to users not to do this if implemented).
>
> My thought, for the things where it matters, is that it's an
> improvement to fail. If you really want it to work (e.g. if you have a
> binary-only static library you need to use), you can probably use
> objcopy or similar to remap the symbols to shims.
>
> Does my above analysis sound reasonable to you?
>
I had understood from your previous emails that musl would start dropping
glibc-abi-compatibility (potentially in general, not just for the
64-bit-time transition) of existing "undecorated" functions, and then
restore compatibility only in a shadowed version of that same function name
in libgcompat.so.
But yes -- just dropping symbols and triggering a link error seems totally
fine. My worry was mainly that there would be mysterious runtime bugs,
especially if a given function's ABI had previously been compatible, and
now becomes incompatible.
And again, I don't think it's a non-starter to make such a change, only
that if that is to happen, it should happen with deliberation and notice to
users.
Rich
>
>
> > On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 8:53 AM Rich Felker <dalias@...c.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:16:51PM -0400, Rich Felker wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 01:10:19PM -0500, A. Wilcox wrote:
> > > > > >> Just trying to make sure the community has a clear view of what
> this
> > > > > >> looks like before we jump in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes. This isn't a request to jump in, just looking at
> feasability and
> > > > > > whether there'd be interest from your side. Being that ABI-compat
> > > > > > doesn't actually work very well without gcompat right now,
> though, I
> > > > > > think it might make sense. I'll continue to look at whether
> there are
> > > > > > other options, possibly just transitional, that might be good
> too.
> > > > >
> > > > > I meant: I want a clear view of the boundaries between musl and
> > > gcompat,
> > > > > before we (Adélie / the gcompat team) jump in and start designing
> how
> > > we
> > > > > want to handle all the new symbols we may end up with :)
> > > >
> > > > If we go this route, I would think that gcompat could provide all
> > > > symbols which are not either public APIs (extensions you can
> > > > legitimately use in source) or musl-header-induced ABIs (for example
> > > > things like __ctype_get_mb_cur_max, which is used to define the
> > > > MB_CUR_MAX macro). This would include LFS64 as well as the "__xstat"
> > > > stuff, the other __ctype_* stuff, etc.
> > >
> > > I think I'd like to go foward with this. Further work on time64 has
> > > made it apparent to me that the current glibc ABI-compat we have
> > > inside musl is fragile and is imposing unwanted constraints on musl,
> > > which has long been one of the criteria for exclusion. In particular,
> > > consider this situation:
> > >
> > > Several structures that are part of public interfaces in musl were
> > > created with extra space reserved for future extension. In some cases
> > > the reserved space was added by musl; in other cases glibc had the
> > > same. However, if we mandate glibc ABI-compat, *all* of this reserved
> > > space is permanently unusable:
> > >
> > > - If the reserved space is specific to musl, then reads from it may
> > > fault, and stores to it may clobber unrelated memory, if the
> > > structure was allocated by glibc-linked code.
> > >
> > > - If the reserved space is present in both musl and glibc, we can't
> > > make use of it without risking that glibc makes some different use
> > > of it in the future, making calls from glibc-linked code dangerous.
> > >
> > > This came up in the context of structs rusage and timex, but also
> > > applies to stat, sched_param, sysinfo, statvfs, and perhaps others,
> > > which might have reason for wanting extensibility in the future.
> > >
> > > Right now, without the glibc ABI-compat constraint, getrusage, wait3,
> > > and wait4 can avoid new time64 remappings entirely (by using the
> > > reserved space we already have in rusage, which glibc doesn't have at
> > > all). [clock_]adjtime[x] hit the second case -- glibc also has
> > > reserved space in timex, but if they end up wanting to use it for
> > > something else and we've put the 64-bit time there, we may be in
> > > trouble.
> > >
> > > I don't think the rusage and timex issues here are compelling by
> > > themselves. It's not a big deal to make compat shims here, and I might
> > > still end up doing it. But I think it's indicative that maintaining
> > > glibc ABI-compat in musl is going to become increasingly problematic.
> > >
> > > So, what I'd (tentatively; for discussion) like to do:
> > >
> > > When ldso loads an application or shared library and detects that it's
> > > glibc-linked (DT_NEEDED for libc.so.6), it both loads a gcompat
> > > library instead *and* flags the dso as needing ABI-compat. The gcompat
> > > library would be permanently RTLD_LOCAL, unable to be used for
> > > resolving global symbols, since it would have to define symbols
> > > conflicting with libc symbols names and with future directions of the
> > > musl ABI.
> > >
> > > Symbol lookups when relocating such a flagged dso would take place by
> > > first processing gcompat (logically, adding it to the head of the dso
> > > search list), then the normal symbol search order. The gcompat library
> > > could also provide a replacement dlsym function, so that dlsym calls
> > > from the glibc-linked DSO also follow this order, and a replacement
> > > dlopen, so that dlopen of libc from the glibc-linked DSO would get the
> > > gcompat module.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what mechanism gcompat would then use to make its own
> > > references to the underlying real libc functions. This is something
> > > we'd need to think about.
> > >
> > > Before we decide to do it, please be aware that this would be a bit of
> > > a burden on gcompat to do more than it's doing now. But it would also
> > > make lots of cases work that fundamentally *can't* work now -- compat
> > > with 32-bit code using the legacy 32-bit off_t functions, compat with
> > > 64-bit code using regexec, etc. -- anywhere the musl ABI currently
> > > conflicts with the glibc ABI. Of course much of this is optional. The
> > > new things that would be mandatory would mainly be moving over
> > > existing glibc compat shims (like the __ctype and __xstat stuff) and
> > > implementing converting wrappers where musl's use of reserved space
> > > creates unsafety/incompatibility with the existing glibc code.
> > >
> > > Rich
> > >
>
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